|
|
Post by cyclepop on Nov 17, 2009 13:51:17 GMT -6
There has been some questions regarding the 85 class(s). Most tracks do not allow 150's or big wheel 85's to run in the age group class. They have to run in school boy, supermini, etc... We will continue to allow the 150's run with the 85's. However should we allow big wheels (85cc or 150cc) run in the age group class(s). They are still eligible to run the super mini.
|
|
|
|
Post by McCourt Family Racing on Nov 17, 2009 14:32:59 GMT -6
There has been some questions regarding the 85 class(s). Most tracks do not allow 150's or big wheel 85's to run in the age group class. They have to run in school boy, supermini, etc... We will continue to allow the 150's run with the 85's. However should we allow big wheels (85cc or 150cc) run in the age group class(s). They are still eligible to run the super mini. I don't have a problem with it. If they are eligible for that age group let em ride in it. There's not that many 150's & as far as big wheels that shouldn't matter. I really don't understand all that anyways as long as it's a 85cc bike. Big wheel, small wheel, I don't think it really makes a difference! On another note: Just wondering, would a kid riding a 125 2 stroke be eligible to race in the super mini class? Thanks! |
|
|
|
Post by DaddyFlea on Nov 18, 2009 13:04:39 GMT -6
There has been some questions regarding the 85 class(s). Most tracks do not allow 150's or big wheel 85's to run in the age group class. They have to run in school boy, supermini, etc... We will continue to allow the 150's run with the 85's. However should we allow big wheels (85cc or 150cc) run in the age group class(s). They are still eligible to run the super mini. I have not posted in a long time but here is my opinion. The 85 classes used to be the biggest classes at the races. I predicted that allowing the 150s in the 85s would kill the class and it did. Allowing big wheels will make it even worse. The same thing happened in the 50 classes when they allowed the 12" wheels in the SR class. Waco allowed the bigger wheels in the Jr class and a lot of people running the JR bikes went elsewhere. You have more control and better suspention on the bikes with bigger wheels and older kids who should have moved up can ride them comfortably. The older kids will stay in the class trophy hunting instead of moving up to a more appropriate bike. Riders will race where the playing field is even or not race at all. |
|
|
|
Post by #644 C.Stevens on Nov 19, 2009 19:29:31 GMT -6
I dont think there trophy hunting if they are still old enough to race the class. The kid might just be tall for his age, and doesnt feel comfortable on a small wheel bike. So I dont see how it would be a huge advantage for a taller rider to race the big wheel, if the bike fits him/her.
|
|
|
|
Post by crf26 on Nov 19, 2009 19:43:31 GMT -6
the 150 did not kill the 85,there all still racin they just moved up
to big bikes,maybe you need to check the races BEFORE you start typing.what would a big wheel do to 85 class,there not as fast,not as easy to turn,the ONLY thing is rider size.....so WHAT?
|
|
|
|
Post by Blazing MX on Nov 19, 2009 20:40:30 GMT -6
Not to hi-jack the thread but from what I can tell looking back over the last 5 years of results, it's not the bikes or sizes that determine class entry turn out, it's the age of the riders. It seems to be cyclic. The 50cc class has once again become a larger class where 2 years ago it was all but non existant. The 65's are growing but the 85's are still small.
Many of the yoounger riders are fast approaching the age where they will move up to the 85 class, when that happens I guess we will see what affect the 150 has had.
|
|
|
|
Post by DaddyFlea on Nov 20, 2009 14:16:12 GMT -6
the 150 did not kill the 85,there all still racin they just moved up to big bikes,maybe you need to check the races BEFORE you start typing.what would a big wheel do to 85 class,there not as fast,not as easy to turn,the ONLY thing is rider size.....so WHAT? Big Wheel has the same engine in most cases but not always the same HP. Because the bigger wheels are meant for bigger riders, sometimes the Manufacters give them just a little more power. This is a legal issue here for the bike makers. I know this is correct in the 50s but not sure about 85s. A bigger wheel in front is easier to control, otherwise all the big bikes would have the smaller wheels. Getting the bike up higher on the bigger wheels allows for more shock travel and better handling. Turning is controlled by rake and trail has nothing to do with wheel size. If your bike is wobbling in the straits stiffen up the shocks or lower them in the clamps. Lowering them in the clamps increases the rake and makes the bike turn slower. A happy medium is hard to achieve sometimes. Since AMA does not allow the 150 in the 85 class, Kids that race the larger tracks have to run 85s and are at a disadvantage at Waco unless they run a Supermini and then the 4 stroke still has a slight advantage at Waco due to the hard ground and slick corners. If you notice the KTM 85s do very well against the 150s and that is because they have a bolt on 105 cylinder. Yamaha, Kawasaki, and Suzuki are much more expensive to modify and can not go back to stock 85s. Regardless of a real advantage or not a Parent that sees his child get beat by a bigger bike is more likely to take his kid to a track that sets what he percieves as a level field. Tell one of these Kids that is having to use blocks to start that size does not matter. I think Mike Haynes had some real good advice one time when we wanted to run our 65 in the 85 class. "If you want to run the 85 class get a 85." Kind of made sense to me. I have been to a couple of races. |
|
|
|
Post by #644 C.Stevens on Nov 20, 2009 18:44:48 GMT -6
I'm just curious, where did you get the information that manufactures "sometimes give the bikes a little more power"?
|
|
|
|
Post by DaddyFlea on Nov 21, 2009 9:29:48 GMT -6
I'm just curious, where did you get the information that manufactures "sometimes give the bikes a little more power"? In the 50cc class where bikes are targeted for kids 6 & under with the 10" wheels, bikes are limited with restrictors and usually set for 10hp or less. In the 50cc class where the 12" wheels are used and the ages are 7-8 those same bikes have between 12 & 15hp. It is liability issue with the Lawyers. Not sure about the bigger bikes especially now that there is a push to avoid the lead law and make all 85s targeted for kids in excess of 12 years old. Just check the Cobra or KTM web sites and look under the HP ratings. Those 50cc engines are the same but have different carbs and such to keep the Hp ratings down. Remember way back when Lee had that bad King Cobra 50cc that we ordered from Virginia that was out running all the 65s. www.cobramotorcycle.com/v3_cx50jr.aspThis is a link for a Jr Cobra with 10" wheels notice the 14MM Carb www.cobramotorcycle.com/v3_cx50sr.aspThis is a link for the Sr cobra with 12" front wheel notice the 19MM carb These are racing bikes only and are not designed for beginners. |
|
|
|
Post by honda499 on Nov 21, 2009 11:26:12 GMT -6
I dont think there trophy hunting if they are still old enough to race the class. The kid might just be tall for his age, and doesnt feel comfortable on a small wheel bike. So I dont see how it would be a huge advantage for a taller rider to race the big wheel, if the bike fits him/her. I agree with Curtis,basically a big wheel 150 is just like a regualar 150 just with bigger wheels and tires so there really isnt much of a differ...... |
|
|
|
Post by crf26 on Nov 22, 2009 16:38:33 GMT -6
danny thats not 85cc thought...
|
|
|
|
Post by cyclepop on Nov 22, 2009 19:21:48 GMT -6
OK, my 2 cents..... I have absolutely no problem with the big wheel or the 150 in the 85 class. I feel the rider is what makes the bike. During our Points Program, a little dude on an 85 (small wheel) smoked the class(s), including big wheels, and 150's. I am still a huge Lee the Flea fan, and watched him smoke the bike bikes when we ran the 85's with the big bike class. Our dilemma is the 85 class has shrunk due to many things (nothing to do with the bike sizes), I would rather keep the kids in their age groups then send someone home or make them only ride one moto. The future of the 85 class is in turmoil as it relates to the AMA. Honda thought they could sway the AMA and they did not budge. Hence, the reason no other manufactures have bitten on the 150. The easy fix to this is for the manufactures to come up with a 125cc 4 stroke, which is eligible for the 85cc stock class? Again no one has bit.
My problem "having" a kid in this class is, there is really no easy transition to the big bikes. Transition from the 50's to the 65 and then to the 85 is very simple steps, but the jump to the 125 or basically a 250f now, is a huge jump. I think a big wheel or a 150 makes this transition easier.
As it sits right now, we will allow the big wheels and 150's run in the 85 classes.
Also the word is getting out about Waco, we are having record entries and making good revenue for the club. Thanks to the efforts of the track guys, the word is out on the track conditions. It is no longer the "cow trail" that everyone remembers. In my few years at Waco I have seen the 50 class grow and fade, the 65 class grow and fade, and I guess it is the 85 class's turn. However when I look at the gates of MX2 and MX3, most of those guys where on 85's not long ago.
PS. As we get to a few other tracks, the 85 class has shrunk there as well. The last Village race only had 4 85cc 12-15. However Supermini and Schoolboy had full gates, they all where on 150's and 125's. Burleson, last year had full gates in both age classes, now has to gate both 85 age groups together as the entries are low. I think, it is due to kids becoming of age, finding other interests, sports, girls/boys etc.......
|
|
|
|
Post by DaddyFlea on Nov 23, 2009 8:29:05 GMT -6
Ron while unaware, you made my point exactly. There needs to be steps. 85cc is a step which in my opinion is a crucial step that needs to be preserved.
The step after 85 is not there and the 150 and big wheels are the next step, but a very poor step. Maybe if everyone made a 150 and it was in fact a big wheel class of its own.
I would like to see the 125 class come back, not 250f 125 only which could include the 150, but not the 144 KTM and such.
I used to shoot competition and saw the same thing happen in those competitions. We had three major classes of pistols and since the promoters were in the business of selling pistols those basic three were allowed some entries to let everyone compete just to be nice. This of course put the basic classes at a disadvantage so the basic class people upgraded and soon the basic class disappeared. Then we went to a bunch of specialized classes to try and get the competition back even but most had traded or sold their basic class weapons so no one was happy. What started as a good group, to be nice and allow some others to compete, turned into a large unhappy bunch that eventually disbanded altogether.
|
|
|
|
Post by cyclepop on Nov 23, 2009 9:37:03 GMT -6
I agree Danny, I think that was Honda's goal (another class), however none of the other manufactures bought into it. Then Honda tried to convince the AMA they were compatible with the 85. Anyone that has ridden a stock 85 and a stock 150, knows there is a huge advantage (with the same skilled rider). Nevertheless, I personally believe a well skilled 2-stroke rider can overcome the power disadvantages. I also feel 2-stroke make you a better rider, hence Gage will continue to race his 2-strokes.
|
|
|
|
Post by DaddyFlea on Nov 23, 2009 14:36:08 GMT -6
Ron right now I do not see the Flea coming back but if he does you know I will not put him at a disadvantage as far as equipment. He most likely will be riding a 125 Yamaha or a 144 KTM Full size bike.
|
|
