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Post by bpoteet4 on Jul 31, 2006 8:54:10 GMT -6
Okay - I started a thread out of the "For Sale" section -- we were getting way off topic. I've just been keeping my mouth shut, but I can't stand it any more so here goes my two cents! Please no one take offense! ;D These are my opinions! This is why I was pushing for some strict rules for the new "Beginner" class. The Flea moving to 85s is truely a beginner in the 85 class although he will surely be competative in the age groups. I think WEMC should follow the same general rules as other tracks - once you've race the age group in a geared bike, you are no longer a beginner when you move up. If Flea was moving from an automatic 50, to a geared 65 -- then he could be classed as a beginner. From 65 to 85 or 85 to 125 - NOT a beginner - just a different sized bike. My opinion. And wouldn't it be an insult to Lee to be racing in the begger class? This is just a personal thing - please don't call the beginner class the begger class. I know you were just joking Tony  For the parents of the kids in this class this term is an insult. There are reasons to have beginner classes -- it's not fun to come into something where others have been racing since they were 4 years old and you are just learning -- getting lapped is no fun. I think we had only positive responses from the kids that rode in the Mini Beginner class -- it was fun for a change to have competition at a different level without getting smoked. I really was not trying to apply this to the Flea because he has way too much experience but without a good firm defintion of "Beginner" using judgement calls will get a lot of feelings hurt. Right now we have Ty Wood who just started riding a bike period in March of this year. He got second in the 65 class last race. He would be at a Handicap on a 65 against the 85s but he is a true beginner who is learning really fast. Banning him from the Beginner Class because he is too fast with less than 6 months experience would not be right. First I don't think Ty's Dad has any intention of trying to put him in the Beginner class -- he is just a natural and is getting so much faster every day. But even if he wanted to, I think there is room for judgment calls on the entries to the Mini Beginner -- that is going to be the difficult part - I agree feelings may be hurt but we're going to have to be consistent. Kids are going to have to be "black flagged" or moved up the next race if they start to get too fast for the beginner class -- once they are competitive with the age group for their size bike, they need to move up whether it's been a year or not. And Ty is VERY competitive in his age group - so I would say NO - he is NOT a beginner class rider at Waco Eagles. Just because he's not quite as fast as the Flea YET, I wouldn't class him as a beginner. The last 65 7-9 race at Waco Eagles was a great one -- if anyone was watching something besides 1st place, they would have seen some great battles going on -- we've got a group of young men that are getting faster -- it's going to be fun to watch next race. Not trying to step on anyone's toes ;D Hope everyone has a great day! Brenda |
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Post by DaddyFlea on Jul 31, 2006 11:55:05 GMT -6
One reason that I used Ty as an example was because his Dad told me Ty was not allowed to run Beginner last race. Another reason is that Ty wants to start riding 85s therefore he would not be as fast on the 85s. Another reason was that Austin the little 50 rider wanted to run 65 Beginner and Dad sais he was not allowed to run either. I just like hard firm rules and if a Beginner is under one year experience then for a year you are a begginer. I personally think it should be 6 months myself but the rule should be the same for all.
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Post by bpoteet4 on Jul 31, 2006 13:12:41 GMT -6
One reason that I used Ty as an example was because his Dad told me Ty was not allowed to run Beginner last race. Another reason is that Ty wants to start riding 85s therefore he would not be as fast on the 85s. Another reason was that Austin the little 50 rider wanted to run 65 Beginner and Dad sais he was not allowed to run either. I just like hard firm rules and if a Beginner is under one year experience then for a year you are a begginer. I personally think it should be 6 months myself but the rule should be the same for all. It was me that told Ty's dad that No - Ty was not a "beginner". I'm sorry I don't think we need to have a "time limit" rule -- some people progress faster than others. Ty out there in the "Beginner" class would be boring for him -- would he REALLY want to ride in that "Beginner" class INSTEAD of riding in the 65 age group? Because to me if he chose to ride in the BEGINNER class he shouldn't also ride in the AGE GROUP -- that's what the BEGINNER class was created for -- to give the riders that are struggling in the AGE GROUP a place to ride. Now someone else can start an argument that the MINI BEGINNER class we created is like an OPEN class so they could enter both the BEGINNER class and the AGE GROUP BUT....to me that's trophy hunting - if, for example, TY did that and got 1st in the Beginner class and 2nd in the age group like he did last month, that would just be trophy hunting. I may be speaking out of line, but I don't think that would be right to the true beginners out there that don't have the speed that Ty has. He's fast enough without the handout of being allowed to ride in the BEGINNER class. As far as the question on Austin goes, if I remember right - he was wanting to ride the 50 in the race NOT the 65. The interpretation I got was that 65's, 85's, and small 4 strokes like TTR 90s and 125 could ride in the MINI BEGINNER class. I think Austin rides in the 50 7-9 age group which is just as much of a beginner class as we have at WEMC. The only way we could get more BEGINNER on the 50's would be if someone wants to start a "wobbler" 50 class - that would be fine. And now that I think of it - Austin is too fast for a wobbler class - he's not slow on that 50! The main problem was caused by the fact that our 50 classes had so few entries this past race that Austin was only able to race in the Mini Beginner class on his 65 that he is learning to ride. Hopefully we'll get more 50's at the next races! As far as the rules applying the same to everyone, I agree - we should apply them the same, but it seems like some are allowed to bend the rules to suit them -- seems like every race someone is arguing about what size bike is allowed to run with what size bike. As far as the MINI BEGINNER class goes, we are going to have to make decisions as we go along until the class gets established -- that happens every time someone comes to the track and has never raced there -- we have the discussion every race about where someone should enter because you don't really know their speed compared to what our classes are until the race is going on. |
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Post by HyperFX on Jul 31, 2006 20:52:56 GMT -6
This is just a personal thing - please don't call the beginner class the begger class. I know you were just joking Tony For the parents of the kids in this class this term is an insult. Brenda My apologies for my "old man racing slang". Was not meant derogatorily. |
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Post by cyclepop on Aug 1, 2006 5:22:17 GMT -6
This is such a tough subject for our great club!! I will say I do not see this type of thing at other tracks. When the race director or race coordinators make a decision, thats the "law". I think we need to be more strict on the beginner classes and the black flag should be used. Our problem in my opinion is we try to run the races the way the club is ran "Friendly". While that is a great thing, on race day it is not a club anymore, the gates are open to the public and it is racing. Toes will be stepped on and tough decisions will be made. Thats racing!!! Sand-baggers are sand-baggers, I see them all over the place, there is enough smart people at Waco running the races to see this and make those decisions. I love the guys that run semi-slow and then throw a huge whip on the finish line jump. Beginner - Right!! In my opinion there should be 2-3 people including the race director to monitor the beginner classes on race day and make those tough decisions. If this is stressed in the riders meeting there should be no problems! PS. I do not feel I should go to Vet A, however that is the decision that was made, and I will accept it. Thats racing!  |
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Post by bpoteet4 on Aug 1, 2006 8:46:41 GMT -6
This is just a personal thing - please don't call the beginner class the begger class. I know you were just joking Tony For the parents of the kids in this class this term is an insult. Brenda My apologies for my "old man racing slang". Was not meant derogatorily. I knew you didn't ;D Tony -- no harm done! I guess I just have a soft spot in my heart for the little guys -- handing out the trophies you see the faces and the excitement. Some kids are so used to winning that picking up the trophies is no big deal - they've got tons at home. At the last race, probably the most excited kids to pick up trophies were the kids from the Mini Beginner class -- it was a new experience for them! Brenda |
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Post by bpoteet4 on Aug 1, 2006 12:07:36 GMT -6
This is such a tough subject for our great club!! I will say I do not see this type of thing at other tracks. When the race director or race coordinators make a decision, thats the "law". I think we need to be more strict on the beginner classes and the black flag should be used. Our problem in my opinion is we try to run the races the way the club is ran "Friendly". While that is a great thing, on race day it is not a club anymore, the gates are open to the public and it is racing. Toes will be stepped on and tough decisions will be made. Thats racing!!! Sand-baggers are sand-baggers, I see them all over the place, there is enough smart people at Waco running the races to see this and make those decisions. I love the guys that run semi-slow and then throw a huge whip on the finish line jump. Beginner - Right!! In my opinion there should be 2-3 people including the race director to monitor the beginner classes on race day and make those tough decisions. If this is stressed in the riders meeting there should be no problems! PS. I do not feel I should go to Vet A, however that is the decision that was made, and I will accept it. Thats racing! I agree 100% Ron -- it is a very difficult job to figure out who needs to ride in what class. Some classes the entries are the same every month, but in classes where you have lots of different faces each time -- I don't think you can say just by looking at the race which class someone should be in. What I'm saying is that I think we're going to have to come up with some "time" guidelines by getting a general idea of what lap time a beginner race is for example. Let's take the new beginner class from last race -- if someone wins this race a couple of times, should that be grounds to automatically move him up? I don't think so -- I think the only fair way would be to time the beginner races and compare them with lap times in the group we would be making them move to. If the person who won the beginner would be in the pack of the age group, then they should move, but if they are going to be significantly behind the pack, then I don't think it's fair to them to make them move up. As I said, it's really no fun getting smoked when you're learning to ride. I guess we just need to get some more volunteers to help out at the races -- as you and Tony have seen the last few races, there are lots of things to do if we want to do this right! You can't please everyone, but sometimes I feel like it doesn't pay to volunteer! Maybe someone with more experience running races has an opinion - I don't want to legislate this into "more than X months", "can't win more than X times". I personally can't think of a way to write the "law" that would be more fair to everyone than Tony or the race director just using his best judgment. Brenda |
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Post by DaddyFlea on Aug 1, 2006 14:39:26 GMT -6
I very much disagree. When you create a Beginner class you need strict guide lines as to what a beginner is. As long as that person is a beginner no discretion should apply. Remember AMA guidlines. You can not bump between classes. Kids should not be punished because they practice more, try harder, or are just plain fast. What Brenda is alluding to is creating the Amatuer, Intermediate, and Expert classes such as in Cross Country. I am fine with this idea. I know first hand the way the kids in Cross Country are proud of that Intermediate or Expert classification. They actually are proud to be moved up. Even if you adopt the Amatuer, Intermediate and Expert classes measuring progress is very hard. The Flea ran in the Expert class and his main competition during one of the races was an Amatuer. The only problem is that we don't have that many kids in the various classes. I do agree with the 50 to geared bike = a beginner. I was never really in favor of the Beginner classes because you can not reach a goal without a clear way to measure progress and I could tell from the meeting opinions of beginners was very different with most leaning on the side of just a slow rider. I don't think slow should be associated with beginner. With the age groups the kids pay their dues as they progress. The Flea should have to eat a litte dust awhile in the 85s before he can do any crowing.
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Post by cyclepop on Aug 1, 2006 16:02:25 GMT -6
Here is a comparison of Burleson to Waco. Other than Beg 1, Beg 2 and Mini 4-stroke, we really dont have a begginer class. Waco is based on Age in most classes other than Vet (NOT FAIR!!!  ) Burleson Classes 50 class combined ages 50 class - open 65 class-combined ages 65 class - open 85 beg 85 nov ** 125 beg/nov/int ** 250 beg/nov/int ** over 30 nov/int/exp over 40 125 open 250 open Pit bike class - open to everyone ** 3 classes 1 gate Waco Classes 50 class 4-6 yrs 65 class 7-9 yrs 65 class Open 85 class 7-11 yrs 85 class 12-15 yrs 85 class Open Beg 1 Beg 2 Novice Big Bike Open Mini 4 stroke Powder Puff Vet A Vet B Quad |
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Post by HyperFX on Aug 1, 2006 16:54:35 GMT -6
PS. I do not feel I should go to Vet A, however that is the decision that was made, and I will accept it. Thats racing! New rule: Now that I am Race Director, I can race in Vet B! |
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Post by Blazing MX on Aug 1, 2006 19:39:40 GMT -6
PS. I do not feel I should go to Vet A, however that is the decision that was made, and I will accept it. Thats racing! New rule: Now that I am Race Director, I can race in Vet B! Who has more authority, race director or president? ;D |
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Post by HyperFX on Aug 1, 2006 22:30:30 GMT -6
New rule: Now that I am Race Director, I can race in Vet B! Who has more authority, race director or president? ;D Good point, but it won't matter anyway,....I'll be too busy to race.  |
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Post by Blazing MX on Aug 1, 2006 22:56:03 GMT -6
Who has more authority, race director or president? ;D Good point, but it won't matter anyway,....I'll be too busy to race. I know what you mean |
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Post by cyclepop on Aug 2, 2006 3:17:14 GMT -6
I think we should have a B+ class!!! ;D
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Post by DaddyFlea on Aug 8, 2006 12:47:36 GMT -6
Just wondering how many would be in favor of reconstructing our Minis into timed classes such as Cross Creek. It seems at Cross Creek in the timed classes a 50 can be running against an 85.
I personally have no opinion because we have not raced in these classes.
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For the parents of the kids in this class this term is an insult. There are reasons to have beginner classes -- it's not fun to come into something where others have been racing since they were 4 years old and you are just learning -- getting lapped is no fun. I think we had only positive responses from the kids that rode in the Mini Beginner class -- it was fun for a change to have competition at a different level without getting smoked.
) 
